Moon-Net@groups.io
 
 
This is a digest for Moon-Net. View all your groups.io groups, and edit your subscriptions, here.
Do not reply to this email. To reply to a message, click the Reply link under the message.
Topics in this digest:
.
1. Re: 2025 approaching. Ready for QSY on 23cm? (9)
2. Re: Identify Super Device? (2)
3. 1296 MHz eme vs Galileo
messages:
.
1a. 
Re: 2025 approaching. Ready for QSY on 23cm?
From: LB6B Ingebrigt
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 15:17:43 UTC
 

 

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bernd.

This is where the departemental language (in German: Ministerialsprache) comes into the equation.
A footnote in that contest is much more rigid in that context.

The regulations are already there and there must be adhered to. It would take courage and a whole lot of reasoning going against the regulations for any national regulator. That would really require a strong political decision to do so. I dont see any initative or reasoning why anyone would do so at the moment.
On the other hand we see countries blocking out the potential of having to deal with interference by reducing powerlevels or stopping all 23 cm activity.

Anyway, back to my question. With 2015 being only a couple of weeks away there should be a bandplan ready.
Regardless of implementation in any country, we should to read the writings on the wall and move to a safer place.
View/Reply Online | Reply To Group & Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic
1b. 
Re: 2025 approaching. Ready for QSY on 23cm?
From: Andreas
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 15:49:23 UTC
 
Excellent answer Bernd and strongly supported from my side and our EME group 👍

France is a problem regarding RF.

France is also making a lot of trouble in other cases as 24 GHz or other high bands like radars for autonomous driving because of their „black holes searching network“ and these guys are only interested in their local targets and not in European interests as they don’t have any automotive radar suppliers as only Ficosa which is the new company that has bought German Hella Radar.
 
73 Andreas

Gesendet mit der GMX Mail App

Am 18.12.24 um 15:52 schrieb DF2ZC via groups.io

 
Von: "DF2ZC via groups.io"
Datum: 18. Dezember 2024
An:
Moon-Net@groups.io
Cc:
Betreff: Re: [Moon-Net] 2025 approaching. Ready for QSY on 23cm?

Hello All,

I was member of the German delegation at WRC-23. These results of WRC-23 are recommendations in case administrations have issues of interference to Galileo receivers which can be proved to be caused by amateur radio emissions. They are not mandatory. It is just a toolbox where administrations affected can make use of - or not.

However, the French administration is still busy – officially and behind the scenes – trying to make these recommendations mandatory at least for EU or CEPT territories. Nothing is decided about this yet, however.

Hence, I would strongly advise NOT to take any premature actions as this will harm the negotiation position on EU or CEPT basis.

Of course one can think of what to do…just in case.

 

vy 73 Bernd DF2ZC

www.df2zc.de

____________________________________________

144 MHz EME NewsLetter:

www.df2zc.de/newsletter

twitter.com/…2zc

144 MHz DXCC #21

144 MHz WAC

Von: Moon-Net@groups.io <Moon-Net@groups.io> Im Auftrag von LB6B Ingebrigt via groups.io
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Dezember 2024 14:25
An: Moon-Net@groups.io
Betreff: [Moon-Net] 2025 approaching. Ready for QSY on 23cm?

Last year at this time, WRC-23 concluded with new and constrained operational rules for the 23 cm band.

2024 has been a significant year for 23 cm activity and operations, but starting January 1, 2025, the new regulations will take effect.

But - where are we going?

Key Changes from 2025 a reminder of WRC23

For most of us, we now need to move our operating frequencies above 1298 MHz. In some cases, operations may need to go even beyond 1299 MHz, which is just above Galileo's frequency top. However, this brings operations closer to the over-the-horizon radars that operate above 1300 MHz, particularly in areas with increased military presence. Finding the sweetspot will be the challenge.

IARU, hopefully in close cooperation with the EME community, is responsible of finding our new operating frequency.
As ITU-R M.2164 states:

"The ITU Radiocommunication Assembly,
considering
a) that the International Amateur Radio Union (IARU) develops, maintains and publishes detailed band plans for the operation and development of the amateur and amateur-satellite services in all three Regions;"

There is little time to decide before 2025. If not already done, we need to act accordingly.
For all I know, this might already have been resolved?

 

Understanding the Legal Framework

From a legal standpoint, this is all about law and regulations, and we are required to comply.
It is critical not to dismiss these changes as "just footnotes". In a legal and regulatory context, footnotes are entirely valid and binding. 

Recap: ITU Radio Regulations (RR)

The ITU Radio Regulations, often called the "Red Book" or RR, is where all WRC-23 decisions are formally recorded. This document serves as the foundation for all telecom authorities.

The 2024 edition, which includes changes from WRC-23, can be downloaded here:
ITU Radio Regulations 2024

Volume 1 of the RR states:

"The majority of the provisions of these Regulations shall enter into force as from 1 January 2025; the remaining provisions shall apply as from the special dates of application indicated in Article 59 of the revised Radio Regulations."

Under Chapter II – Frequencies (pages 101–103), the following footnote regulates 23 cm operations:

"5.332A":
"Administrations authorizing operation of the amateur and amateur-satellite services in the frequency band 1240-1300 MHz, or portions thereof, shall ensure that the amateur and amateur-satellite services do not cause harmful interference to radionavigation-satellite service (space-to-Earth) receivers in accordance with No. 5.29 (see the most recent version of Recommendation ITU-R M.2164). The authorizing administration, upon receipt of a report of harmful interference caused by a station of the amateur or amateur-satellite services, shall take all necessary steps to rapidly eliminate such interference. (WRC-23)"

The final sentence here is significant: it mandates and dictates telecom authorities to address interference immediately and decisively.

Power Limits and Frequency Bands for EME

The referenced document ITU-R M.2164 can be downloaded here:
ITU-R M.2164

Page 3 outlines the following options for Earth-Moon-Earth (EME) operations:

  • 1296-1298 MHz: Maximum transmitter power = 17 dBW
  • 1298-1300 MHz: Maximum transmitter power = 22 dBW
  • For narrowband EME applications with a high-performance antenna (≥30 dBi) pointing at least 15° above the horizontal:
    • 1298-1300 MHz: Maximum transmitter power = 27 dBW

Clarifications:

  • 17 dBW = 50 W
  • 22 dBW = 158 W
  • 27 dBW = 501 W
  • A 30 dBi antenna corresponds roughly to a 3-meter dish.

Implications for EME Operators

Much has already been said about these limitations from an EME perspective. Unfortunately, these rules favor large, high-performance stations operating with antennas above 15° elevation. This has impacted smaller, highly optimised stations like that of KB2SA, who demonstrated remarkable results with a small antenna setup in 2024. The art of optimising RX and compensating TX power now faces new challenges.

Why This Matters

All of these changes stem from one key issue: interference. Interference concerns fall into two categories:

  1. Actual interference events that have occurred.
  2. The fear of interference, particularly with Galileo E6, which is now operational.

This situation was foreseen nearly 20 years ago by G3LTF:
Galileo Interference Paper

Since then, both the EU and France have expressed strong concerns about interference, leading to proposals at WRC-23.

Aviation Security: A Critical Concern and worst case scenario...

The stakes escalated during the lead-up to WRC-23 when interference concerns expanded to include aviation systems. Aviation safety is a top priority, and the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) oversees this area.

When ICAO identifies a security risk, the response is swift and uncompromising. For example, a minor aircraft issue can ground an entire fleet. If interference from amateur operations is reported, there is a real risk that all activity on the 23 cm band could be suspended.

While no such actions have been taken yet, it remains a possibility. The restrictions imposed are intended to ensure secure operations and avoid interference.

The Risk to 23 cm

Let’s be clear: some telecom administrations would prefer to eliminate amateur operations on 23 cm entirely. For them, it simplifies their responsibilities if that would be the case. Some national telecom regulators have already further restricted or outright prohibited 23 cm activity. (That is one way of dealing with the risk.) This is an unfortunate development, but in most countries, operations remain possible under the new framework.

Final Thoughts

The future of 23 cm, particularly for EME, is not yet fully determined. However, compliance with these rules is critical to ensure we retain access to this band. It is up to us as a community to operate responsibly and demonstrate that we can coexist with other services.

Let’s work together to preserve the 23 cm band for the years to come.

Wishing everyone a successful and interference-free 2025 and beyond.

73 de LB6B

View/Reply Online | Reply To Group & Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic
1c. 
Re: 2025 approaching. Ready for QSY on 23cm?
From: John G4SWX
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 16:32:13 UTC
 
On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 06:52 AM, DF2ZC wrote:

Hence, I would strongly advise NOT to take any premature actions as this will harm the negotiation position on EU or CEPT basis.

That is exactly the position of the RSGB for the UK.
There are several, including Bernd working very hard on this matter in CEPT.
Even then it is not clear whether all administrations will follow suit! 
Anything that is seen as supporting Galileo is political dynamite in the UK since the Eu commission excluded the UK on Brexit from Galileo despite many £bn that was invested into the project. I can see significant pressure being put on the UK government by politically savvy members of the amateur community should any change be proposed in the UK.
Pre-emptive shouting that amateurs need to change the bandplans and operations on 23cms is just unhelpful.
 
John G4SWX 
View/Reply Online | Reply To Group & Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic
1d. 
Re: 2025 approaching. Ready for QSY on 23cm?
From: Francesco Cominelli
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 17:27:59 UTC
 

Many thanks Bernd and John for your clarifications. 


 
View/Reply Online | Reply To Group & Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic
1e. 
Re: 2025 approaching. Ready for QSY on 23cm?
From: Don Hawbaker
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 21:07:48 UTC

When I tried to use my W6PQL power amplifier on 1298 during the last contest, it tripped the protection circuit.  I thought it should not have a problem, but it was.  I would not want to move to 1298.

There could have been some other reason it tripped, but I cannot think of anything else.  I have not conducted any further tests since then.  I don’t want to break the thing.
 
View/Reply Online | Reply To Group & Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic
1f. 
Re: 2025 approaching. Ready for QSY on 23cm?
From: LB6B Ingebrigt
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 21:22:24 UTC
 
John, we will soon enough see how this plays out. We are all grateful for those fighting for our spectrum but the intense fight against this resolution might also be a two edged sword as in staying on 1296 and NOT moving up over what we might interfere with WILL more likely cause interference.

With aviation as the prime worry of being interfered with (being documented thru WRC23), any serious incident of interference with them could shut down all 23 cm activity hours after - if that was to happen. In that situation it would not matter if a state would have agreed or not. An ICAO decision based on security will rule over any RR regulation because it has to do with security.
Thats really what we are up against in a very worst case scenario. This also what is spelled out from our counterpart and it needs to be a thought in the back of the head while doing the other clearifications. If not it could potentially be another winning a battle, but loosing a war.

I hope and pray it never escalates thus far.
View/Reply Online | Reply To Group & Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic
1g. 
Re: 2025 approaching. Ready for QSY on 23cm?
From: John G4SWX
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 22:33:03 UTC
 
On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 01:22 PM, LB6B Ingebrigt wrote:

John, we will soon enough see how this plays out. We are all grateful for those fighting for our spectrum but the intense fight against this resolution might also be a two edged sword as in staying on 1296 and NOT moving up over what we might interfere with WILL more likely cause interference.

As is alarmist talk which is counter to the current view of most IARU member societies and IARU who are addressing the issue in CEPT!

 
As you cited the recommendation let me remind you:
""5.332A":
"Administrations authorizing operation of the amateur and amateur-satellite services in the frequency band 1240-1300 MHz, or portions thereof, shall ensure that the amateur and amateur-satellite services do not cause harmful interference to radionavigation-satellite service (space-to-Earth) receivers in accordance with No. 5.29 (see the most recent version of Recommendation ITU-R M.2164). "
 
Galileo E6 is not a service which will be used over large parts of the world. Therefore in many countries there can not be harmful interference to a radionavigation-satellite service which is not used in that country. The noise generated around amateur use of 1296MHz results from a number of claims started by ANFR then supported by the Eu Commission. There are also many other terrestrial radar services in the lower part of the 23cms band which should be of greater concern than radar >1300MHz.
 
Losing a battle, in the worse case might mean the Eu is lost but possibly not the rest of the world. I can hardly see the next US administration willingly following the will of the Eu Commission! I would certainly recommend that if the FCC made any moves in that direction that US amateurs should lobby their elected representatives!
 
John G4SWX 
View/Reply Online | Reply To Group & Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic
1h. 
Re: 2025 approaching. Ready for QSY on 23cm?
From: Don Hawbaker
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 22:38:25 UTC
 
I have not done any testing yet.  I just wanted to raise the issue while it was under discussion.
 
I was in the middle of the contest.  I saw someone calling on 1298.  I QSYed up there.   As soon as WSJT keyed the amplifier, it flashed and tripped.

Since I was in the middle of the contest, I simply moved back to 1296 with the idea of testing it later.  Now it is later, but I have not had time to do that yet.

I will take your suggestions and try it later tonight, or tomorrow morning.  I agree, with that small of a frequency change, it should not be a problem.
 
73
View/Reply Online | Reply To Group & Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic
1i. 
Re: 2025 approaching. Ready for QSY on 23cm?
From: LB6B Ingebrigt
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 23:06:40 UTC
 
Well, time will show, John. But keep in mind that there are already national administrations that have put their feet down, restricting any decent form of operation on the band. And the text and recommendations are in the RR. A bit of pressure there as well. 

As hams we are also very eager to promote the technical aspects in great detail. That is great, but a lot of the time there are a whole lot more to these discussions than that.

The only absolutely sure thing at the moment is that the last word have not been said. Not now, probably not in the long future.

Fingers crossed crossed 23 cm can be kept in a good way - one way or the other.

Keep up the good work!

73 LB6B
View/Reply Online | Reply To Group & Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic
2a. 
Re: Identify Super Device?
From: Paul Andrews
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 15:18:18 UTC
 
Mike,

 
Can you share the eBay link?

 
Merry Christmas!

 
73 - Paul - W2HRO 
View/Reply Online | Reply To Group & Sender | Mute Topic | Top ^ | New Topic
 
3a. 
1296 MHz eme vs Galileo
From: Michael
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 15:41:24 UTC
 
Thank you, Bernd, for a more than clear statement.
I wish everyone lots of eme fun on 1296 MHz!
 
73, Michael SA6BUN / DL1YMK 
Moon-Net posting address: Moon-Net@Groups.IO
Moon-Net owner: Mike, W9IP nlsa@nlsa.com
 
Groups.io   © 2024 Groups.io
 
You are receiving this email because you are subscribed to Moon-Net@group